Why thank you, Evolution Digital for spilling the beans. We’d previously wondered if Plex might hit TiVo … given its recent Opera TV integration. And, now, we have part of the answer. What’s not yet known if this would be a native app, like Vudu, or an app-within-an-app via Opera. What’s also not known is box support and timing. However, I can’t imagine it’ll be a long wait given Evolution’s Amazon download cessation outreach and, at the very least, we can expect Roamio to be covered. Hopefully Premiere too. Properly integrated, Plex would go a long way to shoring up TiVo’s poor support of local media and opens doors on all sorts of interesting scenarios.
Evolution Digital has worked to minimize the field impact of this change and there is no action that a Cable Operator or subscriber will have to take. TiVo will be deploying new OTT services which include:
- Vudu
- iHeartradio
- Plex video, music streaming service
(via Sam on the Investor Discussion Board)
I really hope this offers true integration with OnePass and is a stand alone app. My gut says it will just be part of the Opera store. I have tested the various options on the TCF and my library seems to choke all of them so I still have to use Roku.
I have a hard time with them spotlighting Plex like that if it’s JUST an Opera app. But TiVo markets in strange ways… Doubt we’d see OnePass integration — that’d be real complex for a minority of customers and implies certain things they may not want to.
That’s great news! I’m currently using Xbox One for Plex, but would much prefer both Plex and TiVo recordings on one input so I’m not switching back and forth. I really hope it’s a native/standalone app though. The Opera apps are sooooo slow.
My 2014 LG tv sees Plex without a problem or app and plays it natively. I assume that my Roamio has at least as much power. Just allowing dlna browsing would be a good start and can’t be that hard.
Plex would be AWESOME on tivo! Then I could dump pyTivo and movies would actually be in the correct aspect ratio. I was almost considering more Chromecasts for the TVs that have Tivos just for Plex.
FYI, according to someone on the TiVo community forums, he was told by an Opera employee that this was coming to TiVo in April via the Opera store:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=10405364#post10405364
The icing on the cake would be Plex also for the TiVo Minis.
“My 2014 LG tv sees Plex without a problem or app and plays it natively. I assume that my Roamio has at least as much power.”
Yeah. Native playback is key for me too. If TiVo/Plex can handle playback without transcoding, that’d be the bee’s knees, and would enable me to stop using my Mac Mini HTPC as my Plex client and stop switching inputs. (I never use Plex on my Roku for that very reason.)
(Assuming, of course, that the TiVo/Plex also has a UX more or less on par with the superb Mac UX…)
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“I have a hard time with them spotlighting Plex like that if it’s JUST an Opera app. But TiVo markets in strange ways”
Yup. But, yes, we will indeed have to wait and see.
“Doubt we’d see OnePass integration — that’d be real complex for a minority of customers and implies certain things they may not want to.”
Yup, again.
(Though they could theoretically allow add manually added individual streams, in the same way it currently works for OTT movies, which isn’t really OnePass in name or complexity, even though it’s actually part of the same software package. And hell, adding Plex into search wouldn’t be very hard either, though that’s where the “implications” problem really crops up…)
And good lord. I’ve been on the Plex bandwagon since the initial release. But I never imagined in my wildest dreams that they’d eventually Take Over The World like this…
“The icing on the cake would be Plex also for the TiVo Minis”
I’d think that would have a close to 100% chance of happening.
This is great news. Tivo is the closest thing to “THE ONE BOX” for me. With the exception of Windows Media Center, no one else can give you live tv and dvr for cable or fios and most of the major OTT services and now PLEX integration! Run the hdmi out into the Xbox One and you’ve got just about every major entertainment option available to you! Can’t wait to try out Plex on Tivo!
Chucky, when Plex forked from XBMC, I didn’t think it would ever be on so many devices, especially the Xbox One, and now, Tivo. Still, the mac mini is the prettiest user interface I’ve ever seen for Plex. Hopefully, the Tivo one will be good enough for most users.
I doubt they would offer OnePass integration either, but it is still my hope. As OnePass works now I have zero use for it without local integration. The only other way I would use it doesn’t work. I guess I will just keep using my Roku and PyTiVo setup.
I’m sure there are many users that archive recordings off the Tivo to their computers and use Plex to serve them up. That’s a legitimate use case and one that’s legal and supported by Tivo (well at least the offloading from the DVR part). It would be great if they can figure out some way to have the Plex housed shows be part of onepass.
It can be done, and we know folks like Chucky use it. But I’m not sure TiVo would want to draw attention to that functionality. They walk a fine line with the content and cablecos…
“I’m sure there are many users that archive recordings off the Tivo to their computers and use Plex to serve them up. That’s a legitimate use case and one that’s legal and supported by Tivo”
No. Most definitely not.
I’ve been doing that for years, but the only way to do that is to strip the DRM off the recordings, which is de jure illegal, if not de facto illegal. And that’s certainly not something TiVo can officially support.
pyTiVo, OTOH, allows playback of DRM’d files, which does make it ‘legitimate’ and de jure legal, and thus something TiVo can officially support.
“Chucky, when Plex forked from XBMC, I didn’t think it would ever be on so many devices, especially the Xbox One, and now, Tivo.”
It’s not just Xbox. It’s on everything. It’s on my smart fridge. It’s on smart light bulbs. It’s on trees.
Sort of… you strip it on your own based on reversed engineered decoding. But TiVoToGo still exists and transcodes/strips officially. Of course, you’re left with a lesser quality/resolution video file going down that path (and software that is woefully outdated, outmoded).
“I’ve been doing that for years, but the only way to do that is to strip the DRM off the recordings, which is de jure illegal, if not de facto illegal. And that’s certainly not something TiVo can officially support.”
Interesting as I always thought it was legal since TiVo’s own desktop app (although discontinued) allows transfer and conversion (I’m assuming that’s the same as stripping the DRM off the recording). I only use kmttg now, but same idea. I’m the only person/household viewing the converted shows, which I thought was perfectly legal. With Plex though, you can share libraries. I can definitely see that as illegal, but not shows that are used for personal viewing.
“Interesting as I always thought it was legal since TiVo’s own desktop app (although discontinued) allows transfer and conversion (I’m assuming that’s the same as stripping the DRM off the recording).”
Huh. Never having used TiVo desktop, I was unaware of that. But some quick googling shows it to be true. I’d strongly assume that the one conversion it wouldn’t let you do is to just convert from .tivo to .mpeg, with no loss in quality.
My assumption is that the extreme lossiness of the conversion for mobile devices is how TiVo was able to convince CableLabs at the time that it was kosher. But I strongly suspect that the CableLabs stance changed in the past few years, which is highly likely why the product was discontinued.
“I’m the only person/household viewing the converted shows, which I thought was perfectly legal.”
Nope. De jure illegal. De facto legal. Same as ripping a DVD you own for your personal usage.
No one gets prosecuted, but it’s technically against the law. (However, if you try to sell the tools needed to accomplish either of those things, the law will go after you.)
Ripping CD’s is de jure legal only because there is no DRM to strip.
TiVoToGo file encryption (and HME) came via their Strangberry acquisition and work by Arthur van Hoff starting in like 2004. Initial TiVoToGo was for Windows desktop playback – the TiVo Desktop software decrypted as it played, it was all self contained. To bypass TiVo’s restrictions and limitations, we “played back” faster than real time behind the scenes via a Windows video decoder and captured that unencrypted stream. But a few years after that, someone broke the code and posted it, which led to decryption showing up in a variety of third party software tools (like kmttg). TiVo Desktop and Roxio creator still exist as a paid upgrade that includes codec libraries for transcoding, post-decryption, for mobile devices. But these were designed in an era of much lower resolution devices and with TiVo being cautious. As far as illegal, or unethical, or immoral, folks building libraries of content they paid for seems entirely legit in light of the historic VHS ruling. Tho DMCA could change the dynamics and I’m obviously not a lawyer. Without putting this online for public consumption, I’d think we’d be in the clear and I certainly have no problems with it.
I like to archive the tivo recordings off the Tivo box to the pc. Circumvent the restrictive software and stream the recordings back to the Tivo or other device (xbox one, roku 3 etc). Thank goodness for third party software options.
“Nope. De jure illegal. De facto legal. Same as ripping a DVD you own for your personal usage.”
Ah, yes, good point Chucky. I guess Kaleidescape losing their court battle proves that point. Seems silly though. I wonder if DVD’s, Blu-rays, DVR’d shows, etc. will ever go DRM-less like CD’s. Although technically you need to keep the CD even if you’ve ripped it right? The way I’ve always understood it, reselling the disc meant you gave away your right to own the song. Ah heck, who knows. How are we as users expected to keep all of these laws straight when it takes legions of lawyers to fight these issues out in court. :)
“As far as illegal, or unethical, or immoral, folks building libraries of content they paid for seems entirely legit in light of the historic VHS ruling.”
At the risk of sounding like a noob, what’s the hostoric VHS ruling you’re referring to? Is that the Sony vs Universal Betamax case? http://consumerist.com/2014/01/17/on-this-day-in-1984-the-supreme-court-saved-the-vcr-from-certain-death/. On a side note, in the article the Dish Hopper ad-skipping functionality is mentioned. Any chance TiVo will try to make another run at ad skipping?
Yeah, Betamax not VHS. That’s the one. :) DMCA includes provisions related to circumventing protection, tho. But for personal use, again I’d say the average consumer not doing the wrong thing would be in the clear. Other than the 30 second skip and fast forward, TiVo wouldn’t revisit ad skipping. It pretty much killed ReplayTV and has probably cost DISH heavily (beyond the legal expense, when combined with streaming and automatic recording) in licensing/retransmission renewals. TiVo needs to play nice with the content owners and cable companies. As it is, within the last year or 18 months TiVo disabled dual HDMI and component output (impacting Slingbox owners who weren’t wired up in serial).
“As far as illegal, or unethical, or immoral, folks building libraries of content they paid for seems entirely legit in light of the historic VHS ruling. Tho DMCA could change the dynamics and I’m obviously not a lawyer. Without putting this online for public consumption, I’d think we’d be in the clear and I certainly have no problems with it.”
I’m not a lawyer either, but I’ve followed this all pretty closely. For background:
– DMCA made stripping DRM de jure illegal.
– The triumphant “DVD Jon” legal case made distribution of info and code allowing for stripping DRM de jure legal, as long as no money changes hands. This is why kmmtg is de jure legal to make and distribute.
– A website like this that takes ads and points to and/or discusses things like DVD Jon’s decryption key or kmmtg, is indeed de jure legally free and clear.
– TiVo Desktop was able to allow low-res conversions that stripped DRM only because CableLabs signed off on it, and had the legal rights to sign off on it. Otherwise, TiVo could not have done it because of the DMCA.
– The historic VHS ruling aside, stripping Macrovision protection off a VHS to copy it is de jure illegal today, because of the DMCA.
The ethics and morality of stripping DRM off items you own to assemble a personal collection in a more convenient form is obviously a very different issue. It seems perfectly A-OK in my book.
(There is obviously a grey area of ethics and morality with things like renting discs from Netflix and ripping them, or using kmmtg to get around windowing restrictions. But hell, it’s perfectly legal to borrow a CD from a friend and rip it for your own usage. So even the grey areas of ethics and morality seem essentially unproblematic to me, as long as you’re not mass sharing stuff, which is where the ethics and morality get far less grey to me.)
“I wonder if DVD’s, Blu-rays, DVR’d shows, etc. will ever go DRM-less like CD’s.”
Sure. The same day hell freezes over. (If the music industry had to do it all over again, they’d have pulled the CD format in the early-mid ’90’s, suffered a severe and very painful short-term loss, and reintroduced a DRM’d disc format. And they’d be incredibly healthier today. An odd side-effect is that Apple today would be either a relatively minor tech company, or out of business.)
“Although technically you need to keep the CD even if you’ve ripped it right? The way I’ve always understood it, reselling the disc meant you gave away your right to own the song.”
Oddly enough, my understanding is that it’s perfectly legal to rip a CD you don’t own. Stripping DRM is what is illegal.
Even mass file sharing with no money changing hands isn’t illegal; it just subjects you to a potential civil suit where they can take your money, but not a criminal case where they can take your freedom.
The beauty of plex is that it supports a thin client (a web browser). All the presentation can be structured on the server-side, and your client just displays it on the screen. That’s how the appletv plex hack works. Surprisingly well!
The real question is which video formats the client natively supports. TiVo certainly doesn’t support MKV containers, so it won’t Direct Play (= completely unchanged), but TiVo does support h.264 video as well as MP3, AAC decoding, so it will probably not require transcoding for most media.. It will do what Plex calls “Direct Stream”, which replaces the container but doesn’t need to transcode the data inside.
I’d expect it to work really well with the usual h.264/AAC MKV files available everywhere, and not so great with everything else. Like WMV files, those will need to transcode, and FFMPEG doesn’t do a great job at trick play, seeking, etc. Poor experience there versus something like Kodi on a fireTV.
Reference for TiVo codec support
https://code.google.com/p/streambaby/wiki/video_compatibility
The transferred shows aren’t flagged as copy once. They are flagged as copy freely. I don’t see how this couldn’t be classified as legal. You are merely changing the container. I don’t believe anyone has actually cracked CC encryption otherwise someone would have built a tool for WMC instead of only the tools that work with copy freely content. Based off this I wouldn’t classify what KMTTG and TiVo Desktop do as DRM stripping. The content isn’t actually protected.
Again, it’s yes and no… here’s some info from 2006.
https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2006/12/class_break_of_1.html
http://boingboing.net/2006/12/04/tivotogo-drm-cracked.html
There’s MPEG2 inside what’s an essentially encrypted .tivo container. If you’re talking salt and key (MAK), as we are, I’d say it’s encrypted. CableCARDs themselves are more authentication than encryption and the copy flag is just meta data that someone chooses to honor.
Legality isn’t determined by the effectiveness of the encryption. The DMCA makes it illegal to “attempt to circumvent” any protection, no matter how trivial it is to do so. KMTTG absolutely does strip DRM.
Ultimately, “legality” is determined in a court of law. Especially in a grey area such as this where fair use cases and cirumvention wording seem to conflict. For personal usage, as we’re discussing, no one will test stripping TiVo’s container in any hallowed hall. However, what comes out of the CableCARD successor meetings or future CableLabs directives could change the situation. We’re somewhat blessed that TiVo isn’t more successful…
Also interesting in this space. We know there’s widespread sharing of online streaming accounts. I tried Comedy Central for the first time yesterday, beyond username and password of my provider, it also asked for zip code when I tried to link my account – I don’t recall seeing anywhere before. (It turns out my lesser FiOS plan doesn’t actually include Comedy Central.) Will be interesting to see how/if HBO GO is locked down once HBO NOW is available to those without HBO. FiOS is currently running a promo where I can get it for $10/mo for 12 months. Suppose I’ll turn off Netflix for a bit after Bloodline and add HBO back in.
To agree with Rodalpho and Dave:
“I don’t see how this couldn’t be classified as legal. You are merely changing the container.”
Right. You are merely changing the container from one with DRM to one without. Which leads us directly back to here. Do not pass Go. Do not collect $200.
“The transferred shows aren’t flagged as copy once. They are flagged as copy freely.”
“Copy freely” isn’t legal language. It just means you can copy freely within the CableLabs schema. So to remain de jure legal, you can copy those shows off your TiVo, keep them in the .tivo container, and transfer them back to that same TiVo.
Note that “copy freely” within the CableLabs schema means that you can’t transfer those offloaded .tivo files back onto a TiVo with a different MAK, which should empasize my point about what “copy freely” really means…
“Based off this I wouldn’t classify what KMTTG and TiVo Desktop do as DRM stripping. The content isn’t actually protected.”
I can create a format with the weakest DRM imaginable, call my format “give everyone in the world a copy”, and it’d still be de jure illegal to strip the DRM by changing the container.
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“I don’t believe anyone has actually cracked (“copy once”) encryption”
Who knows? Even after Time-Warner moved their premium channels to “copy once”, high-quality copies of their shows still appear on file sharing sites almost immediately after the initial US broadcast. I have zero idea what method is being used, but some form of encryption somewhere in the chain is being cracked with ease.
And FWIW, any pre-shared, mass-distributed key system is utterly trivial to crack. That’s why DMCA got passed. I’m sure someone could physically hack a TiVo to allow it offload “copy once” shows, if they were motivated enough. They just couldn’t sell the boxes without going to jail, and TiVo would have to cut off service to the boxes if they could detect the hack in order to stay in CableLab’s good graces.
Who wants to bet they require a plex pass to use the app!! That would totally be tivo.
I am a recent Plex convert. I have it running on a Readynas Pro that has no horsepower at all. It can transcode audio flawlessly but no video. Seeing as most content these days is h.264 with AAC,AC3, or DTS audio it works perfectly. On a Roku just about everything plays via Direct Stream but even on a Fire Stick which has no 5.1 support, they old ReadyNAS will chew through DTS audio like a knife in butter outputting it in pristine 2 channel stereo! lol
I haven’t seen any indication cablelabs’ encryption has been cracked, but HDCP certainly has. Other half of the equation, with the advent of ambarella chips a couple years ago it is possible to encode high-bitrate HD video to h.264 in realtime.
So while you can’t get at the raw datastream before the cablecard decrypts it, that actually doesn’t matter a whole heck of a lot.
“encode high-bitrate HD video to h.264 in realtime”
And why you see so many boxes arrive without component these days and why TiVo recently disable simultanious HDMI and component output as the powers that be attempt to close the analog hole. Also… This brings us nearly full circle to the Slingbox ads post. Thinking I swap the Slingbox 500 for this Elgato Game Capture device to handle the occasional blog or research project. Related, I need a HDCP compliant HDMI splitter/switch. Deciding if I get a small, simple one for projects or like a 4-port job with optical out that I can also use for family room television and soundbar. Hm.
What do you mean? Everything has HDMI. Component is super rare these days.
But since you can just strip HDCP with a $24 box, and encode that HDMI to h.264 in realtime with a $74 box, both delivered free in 2 days or less from amazon.com, that doesn’t matter a whole heck of a lot. Who needs an analog hole?
“However, what comes out of the CableCARD successor meetings or future CableLabs directives could change the situation. We’re somewhat blessed that TiVo isn’t more successful…”
Meh. I don’t think anyone worries about individuals going to the hassle of decrypting teevee shows any more than they worry about individuals going to the hassle of decrypting physical discs.
In other words, TiVo could have mass penetration, and it wouldn’t change the equation. Mass internet file sharing is, as always, the real issue. And I expect the secret clauses in either of the trans-oceanic trade treaties to legally crack down on that in some draconian and highly disturbing form.
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“I tried Comedy Central for the first time yesterday, beyond username and password of my provider, it also asked for zip code when I tried to link my account – I don’t recall seeing anywhere before.”
Interesting.
I’m very curious if that was genuine lean-back location verification, or just another hurdle to jump through – aka do you know the billing zip code of the account info you’ve stolen.
Personally, I’m in favor of location verification for the lean-back only. Obviously, mobile is a different ballgame. But lean-back is where the real pricing power lays in video, and were I a content company, I’d want to find some way of restricting lean-back access to my paying customers. (Obviously, again, it gets complicated if you want to let folks travel and the like. Maybe a much stricter limit on the number of lean-back log-ins outside of a single IP address is a better solution than location verification…)
Yeah, who knows if they’re just doing a survey or the answer is checked and matters. Access was leanback via Xbox One but authentication/linkage was via webpage (on my phone). Some or one app senses my FiOS connection and lets me thru with no logon – maybe CNN on iPad?
As an update to the article, Plex’s PR agency has nothing to say at this time. I had inquired if there was more info available.
Rodalpho, mental typo on the HDMI/component – I flipped them. I was looking at the $24 box… or a more full featured $46 box that I can probably use for something other than an occasional project. What $74 box are you referring to? Like I said, I am looking at the El Gato one for twice that price (as I’ve had good experiences with their products and the software looked useful).
“As an update to the article, Plex’s PR agency has nothing to say at this time. I had inquired if there was more info available.”
Toss a bone to Barkley. He’s the one with all the fresh info.
I really hope we see this as a stand-alone and not part of the Opera Store.
For those of you crazy enough to jump through the hoops found out that it would only allow a 4mb 720p stream. It was allegedly an Opera limitation.
As much as I want it… I sure hope its a stand-alone app ala Netflix.
If opera limits it to 720p its doa. There is no reason the opera app could not have a link on the my shows list or in the menu’s like Netflix if Tivo wants, so just because its an opera app does not mean its all that useless, but limited resolution would.
I have always thought highly of Plex but never installed it, since it did not support Tivo and that is where 95% of our media consumption resides. I will set up the server and likely purchase a plex subscription to get its extra features if it comes to Tivo unhindered.
What’s up with the reference to 3.4 firmware? Last I checked my Roamio is running 20.4.6. Anyone understand this numbering?
Sorry, missed your reply last week, had the page up on my work computer. I don’t see it now, but the $74 box was one of the many results in a “record HDMI” search on amazon. I hear the elgatos are fine, as are the hauppauges.
I wonder why the opera store would limit to 720p? Very weird. It’s not like it does anything other than play video in a format the device already supports.
This is encouraging news. I’ve been waiting since reading the original post of Plex going on Opera. I’d prefer a native App too. What would be super, super awesome is to use Plex to playback remotely from my Tivo. Plex clients work well and so I’d be happy with a plex client on Tivo but to then go one step further and use Plex for remote viewing from Tivo would be stellar. (Sorry Tivo, I think your mobile clients suck!)