Over the last several weeks we’re been hit by a large number of comments originating from DISH Network. While we encourage industry participation and greatly appreciate corporate disclosure, this is a clear case of astroturfing – these drive-by comments largely bad mouth the competition while pumping their own product lineup, versus joining the conversation. My friends at GigaOm/NewTeeVee have been similarly hit and seem to feel the same.
Generally speaking, the comments haven’t been very compelling (or coherent). But the most recent contribution is extra special… posted by someone who identified himself as DISH Network employee and originating from DISH Network’s IP range:
TiVo has not made a lot of strides […] since their initial product release. That’s why I’m glad I am both a customer and employee of DISH Network. DISH is constantly at the forefront of new technologies […]
Now I often come down on TiVo for their slow pace of innovation. But it’s a bit different when the criticism comes from a DISH Network employee… as they’ve been engaged in a protracted patent infringement battle. Which, incidentally, DISH/EchoStar lost. To the tune of $100 million and possibly counting.
So this is the point in the article where I’d typically make some snarky remarks wondering how exactly DISH might have found itself “at the forefront of new technologies” and suggesting TiVo’s been preoccupied with legal proceedings at the expense of innovation. But I’ll leave any further commentary to you in the comments…
Interesting tactic, but it’s a bit like apples & oranges. TiVo isn’t really a content delivery service like DISH Network, right? (You also don’t need to bolt anything to your house to use TiVo…)
I’ve been a LONG time TiVo advocate, but the bottom line is that since Series 2 and MVR (multi-room viewing) and TiVo Desktop, everything has been a simple “enhancement”.
They:
Aren’t innovating – they are years behind for what seems to be organizational issues (Where are the new DirecTV, Comcast, etc.. boxes)
Have a FLAWED business model which will cause their death – I can’t stomach paying $10+ a month for LISTING data in the Internet age. I’d rather pay $200-400 for a box outright and NOT pay a monthly fee.
Lack a real Development Platform – TiVo needs to take a tip from Apple here. They have HME but that’s clumsy and not supported strong.
TiVo was YEARS ahead of everyone with the DirecTV S2 units and they just failed to keep evolving.
Part of business is being able to MAKE BUSINESS HAPPEN.
I think middle and upper management needs to get dropped and they need new leadership and someone with innovation in mind.
TiVo either needs to get serious about their Consumer Electronics efforts, or part it out to Google and be an IP troll. If they don’t, they’ll just fizzle.
I mean come on, FAILURE TO Launch:
Sep 3 2008 – (New) HD TiVo Coming to DirecTV!
https://zatznotfunny.com/2008-09/new-hd-tivo-coming-to-directv/
Status: Unknown e.g. Oct 3 2010 – The New DirecTV TiVo Is Still Delayed (2011)
https://zatznotfunny.com/2010-10/the-new-directv-tivo-is-still-delayed-2011/
Jan 13 2007 – The Comcast-Motorola-TiVo @ CES
https://zatznotfunny.com/2007-01/the-comcast-motorola-tivo-ces/
Status: Only avaiable in “New England” and limited within that market area, which is the same status since:
Oct 11 2007 – Did the Comcast TiVo Really Launch?
https://zatznotfunny.com/2007-10/did-the-comcast-tivo-really-launch/
Bottom line: You’d have to pry my Zipper’d DirecTV Series 2 TiVo with MRV patched from my COLD, DEAD, LIFELESS hands, but to me, they have been on deathwatch since Comcast’s launch failure.
From the experiences I have both with TIVO and Dish, I have to say Dish continues to sound like the used cars salesmen of the industry…bad mouth the Cadillac and sell the Yugo. Tivo premier, although not perfect, is the best system out there for the typical user. The new ipad application is excellent. Dish is not as user friendly, the hardware is a bit lacking, and overall I don’t feel I need to take a shower after dealing with TIVO customer service versus Dish. Perhaps what Dish meant to say is the software the “acquired” from TIVO is a bit stale because it is from the series 1 and they need to upgrade. Perhaps TIVO should drop off a Premier to their engineering department liked the did before.
FYI MethodicJon does not work for DISH. :)
No, I work for none of these companies, but I do have shares of TiVo… sadly.
As soon as Dish network can find a way to connect a Tivo to their equipment then I’ll listen to them.
Here’s an interesting compatibility chart from TiVo with various providers
http://support.tivo.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/300/kw/DiSH%20Network
Greg, looks like you’d have to get a Series 2, which are dirt cheap these days.
Dish Network’s social media PR team clearly needs to stop making inane comments on all the websites and blogs that cover cable, satellite, etc.
Dish couldn’t be more lame or stale. I still can’t share video between boxes in my own house and I can’t view my DVR video on my computers unless I completely upgrade my equipment. Storing extra video costs me a really lame format fee to add a drive. This is all trivial stuff Dish – and you are losers as far as I’m concerned. Any day now, I’ll replace your lame service with some web based service.
If Dish is stuffing the comments here, it makes you wonder where else they maybe hanging out. I know that for the last several months, TiVo’s Facebook account has been under attacked by “disgruntled” customers, but it’s pretty much been the same trolling.
@MethodicJon – But then I wouldn’t be at “…forefront of new technologies…”. No HD TV, no Netflix, and no 1080P MKV files of my BluRay discs. A 2 TB drive sure holds a bunch of video.
I agree with MethodicJon completely.
After Series 2, Tivo hasn’t innovated much, and worse yet has missed leveraging what they had. Tivo apps could have had potential. Internet connectivity could have had potential. Improved multi-room viewing could have had potential
I have no inside info, but my guess that there was a visionary at Tivo, who left or got forced out around the time of the Series 2 introduction. Innovation seemed to have ended there. I suspect that they’ll soon be swallowed by one of the upstart internet TV outfits (Google perhaps?)
I have no comment on Disk Network. I switch back & forth between Dish & DirecTV every couple of years, to take advantage of “new customer pricing” and to get new hardware free. I’m currently with DirecTV and am happy with their DVR and whole house viewing. Netflix built into my HDTV serves all of my internet-available content needs (for less that a monthly Tivo fee).
My lifetime Series 2 Tivo lives on, connected to DirecTV and an old SDTV, providing odds and ends of content to view in my basement workshop.
I think Tivo is improving. For example the other day I caught the tail end of a movie on SyFy that looked pretty good. I did a Tivo search and it wasn’t going to be on SyFy again. It did list it available on Amazon and Netlfix instant watch. I was able to start streaming the movie instantly from Netflix and it was in HD. I liked the convergence of the search, something Google TV is trying to do but with Tivo you have a DVR. Now if only Tivo could add more services to search but then the TV execs would block them like Google.
Greg,
I agree TiVo’s new search method, whatever they call it, is good, but there’s so much more they could have done with Premiere.
I know I might get some ugly looks on this, but don’t rush to judgment on this….
Blu-ray. Physical media will never die off totally.
I would totally have bought a Blu-ray TiVo unit for every TV in my house. TiVo + streaming tech and Blu-ray. SOLD!
Now, a DirecTV TiVo, dual tuner, with Blu-ray. Wet dream right there folks. Good by PS3 that I use for movies, LAN streaming and Netflix.
@MethodicJon,
Agree with most of your comments on Tivo. Clearly a failure of leadership as well as execution. Leadership first though.
@Dave,
I like that the Dish Network folks are out there. I want companies to be responsive to comments. BUT that said, I agree completely that they need to restrict their comments to their own products. In Dish’s case they’ve got some nice stuff they can talk about. I’d suggest they restrict their comments to that.
PS – Sadly Dish Network Mission accomplished, as we are talking about them ;(
I guess this is a case of ‘even bad press is press, which is good press’
KAHNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN
I just think Tivo doesn’t have the resources these days that they used to. It’s dissapointing that the Premiere is still not completed. Only part of the system is using an updated HDUI. The dual core processor is still running in single core mode (IIRC), and the system has some lags and stutters all over the place. Nothing groundbreaking by any means. Does it have potential? Sure it does! They just don’t seem to be devoting the time they need to finish the product. Sure that iPAD app looks awesome, but what about finishing the Tivo as well?
What about innovative streaming multiroom with MoCA and using small client boxes, or RVU, or some other IP remote display app via a gaming console, PC, or “Smart” TV App. That would be pretty slick don’t you all think so? And why in the hell did Tivo CEO state that the new DirecTivo will be the same old SD Tivo user experience? What a failure. DirecTV will be launching it’s own updated HDUI later this year, and you want me to buy into an old school Tivo interface? Not going to happen.
What is up with the Comcast and Tivo on Motorola affair? Why don’t they just scrap that project and do a real world Tivo Premiere with VOD app built in, just like RCN?
But Dish Network employees, you guys are comparing apples to oranges. Unless you are SPECIFICALLY comparing your latest product, the 922 TO a Tivo. Otherwise you can’t compare a service provider with a hardware interface. That’s like saying a BMW drives better on Pennsylvania roads than Maryland roads. Not a fair or reasonable comparison.
I wouldn’t be surprised to find that some of the same Dish posters have infected the TiVo community forums. It used to be a good place for discussion, but has severely gone down hill in the past few years. I saw one thread pointing to another thread for evidence of complaint and not a single person had over 20 posts in the “evidence” thread.
I do agree though that TiVo does need to sit down and reexamine their ideas. While the idea of the Premiere is certainly a step in the right direction, it came way too late with poor implementation. Hindsight is 20/20 but there are so many other ways they could have handled the launch especially assuming the rumors are correct that the hardware was ready to go 5 months earlier.
TiVo has now put themselves in a predicament with some customers and while some of the blame is on TiVo, the rest lays on the people. These customers bought the TiVo HD or Series 3 late in the life cycle and now seem to drown out those who bought the Premiere. This is especially obvious when you see the responses about the iPad App. I don’t know if it is just the general sense of entitlement some people seem to have these days, but I just don’t get it.
The other problem with TiVo is they just seem to start things and not flesh them out. Compare KMTTG to TiVo Desktop. Taking away some of the features like commercial skipping and that, there are so many basic features they should have implemented by now like folders, custom file names, etc. There also should have been a newer version released to support the Premiere which has the new UI and then you would see potentially the features of the iPad app added.
Take their new search on the Premiere which I do like and use it constantly. The only issue is the results aren’t 100%. There are titles that are missing from Amazon or Netflix and this was reported back in the beta search from what I have read on TCF. They are still missing titles. This also affects the new episode search since some shows just don’t pull up even though you can find them manually by show title.
This also flows over onto their episode guide which is supplied by Tribune. Most probably won’t notice but if you use episodes especially with programs like XBMC and MediaBrowser you notice how off or incomplete the listings are from Tribune when comparing sites like TVrage and theTVDB to zap2it.
TiVo also seems to not have done a great job revealing new features of the Premiere. Did you know you can now update the channel number of a season pass in the HD UI without deleting and recreating the season pass? Did you know you can create a wishlist that works most of the time for episodes not in the guide? Did you know if your HD UI locks up you can reboot the UI without pulling the plug which takes a fraction of the time to reset? Did you know about the ability to search by episode title in TiVo Search?
Before I keep ranting which I could go on and on so I won’t, I like my TiVos and I use them constantly. I still think depending on your provider and usage they are the best DVR out there. Do they offer my dream DVR? Not at all, but as time goes on other companies keep getting closer and closer. Had I never used TiVo and I was looking for a DVR, I don’t know that it would be TiVo. I think this says a lot. I think this says a lot about where TiVo is for me.
I am hoping 2011 brings some good and nice things for and from TiVo, but based on the track record I am not holding my breath. I hope it shows that the Premiere is just the beginning of a new platform rather than the new model for 3-4 more years.
As far as the whole Dish thing, I have never considered them a company worth looking at for service so I can’t speak about them or their employees.
A major mistake that resulted in a massive loss of business was Tivo leaving behind all of the satellite customers after Series 2.
I had 3 series 2’s and was ready to spend some big $$ all new replacement Tivos, only to find out that as a satellite customer, I was at a dead end. (No cable or FIOS available to me).
With that move, Tivo gave up on a large portion of their potential customers.
I don’t seeing them surviving being squeezed from cable & satellite providers on one side, and all the new Internet boxes form the other. All they have left is a few patents & some lawyers.
I guess this thread isn’t really about Dish anymore… that said, if I were going to switch to satellite (which I might do if Comcast keeps f”ing around with my CableCards… grrr) it certainly wouldn’t be Dish. Direct TV kicks their butt as far as I can tell. Not sure why I’d even look at them.
As far as Tivo goes, I lay a majority of the blame on the managers of the company. Rewrite the whole U/I in Flash? Stupid idea on the face of it. Obvious that it would be much slower. And given how little evidence there is for the ‘service velocity’ I can’t imagine there have been ANY benefits to the change.
Dual core CPU didn’t work out? Again, obvious from day one. If you know anything about coding you know that multithreading is hard and its not easy to adapt existing code that wasn’t written for multi-threading to a multi-core environment. Yet they went ahead anyway. Probably could have gotten a faster single core CPU instead, but nooo…
Comcast Tivo? Running the Tivo UI on a Motorola STB in some Java run time environment? You thought that was going to work out? Are you six? Do you have no experience in North American cable? There was no chance this was ever going to work.
Like others I love my Tivos, use them all the time, but if I weren’t a long time Tivo user I probably wouldn’t start now. The non-DVR stuff is sad–look at ANY other box (Apple TV, Roku) and you’ll see better implementations of streaming services? Their Netflix integration is poor. Amazon is text only, can’t even be bothered to present episodes in series order for Christ’s sake. Photos and music are next to useless. Better to just ignore them and stick another box next to the Tivo.
But the DVR, and the Tivo to Go integration are what keep me there. For now.
Like others I don’t have much hope that Tivo will do anything to return the love we give them. I think they’ll just quietly go out of business at some point. Sure its partly due to the Cable Company’s screwing them with Cable Cards and Tuning Adapters and so forth, but Tivo was a happy participant in all of this.
Will they be around for the redesign necessitated by the successor of Cable Card if the FCC ever gets off their ass and does anything? I probably doubt it.
you’re right, dish is ahead – because it STOLE tivo technology. read the court case. and then they probably kept on stealing…
dish pr just badmouthing tivo prior to the court decision.
I’m just trying to earn a living. Charlie doesn’t pay 5 cents a post anymore and nobody pays attention to the DBStalk board since they’ve banned anyone with a differing opinion of Charlie and Dish. What am i supposed ro do?
Could it be that Tivo ran out of money and has cut the programing staff back to the point they cannot implement the the cool stuff they wish to do?
When resources are at server level most co. it is real hard to add more that what is required.
I like to complain about TiVo as much as anyone else, but Dish employees have no business badmouthing a company they owe hundreds of millions of dollars. I’m pretty sure Dish’s legal strategy at this point is to drag things out in hopes that TiVo will dissolve or falls on hard times & then can acquire it and end the lawsuits.
As far as DBS providers go, I really wanted to go with Dish Network and the new Sling Loaded 922 DVR. However in my area, we require the dish to be pointed at the Eastern Arc 60-80 degree window. Sadly I did not have line of sight, so they had to refund my money. So I went with DirecTV instead, since they point in a different direction.
My mom has Dish Network and I like their selection of HD channels better. I don’t know what’s up DirecTV’s ass these days, but getting them to add new HD is like pulling teeth. This causes 100+ page arguments on forums like DBSTalk with constant debates and bickering on why DirecTV is stagnant in that area.
My local cable co “Service Electric Cablevision” all of a sudden has been doing a great job with adding HD. They are even getting BBC America and Fox Movies in HD by 2/28. You never hear of DirecTV adding any of the most wanted HD anymore. If I could take back that decision I would, however their large ETF’s make it not worth it. I guess that’s what they make BitTorrent for and appending the phrase 720p on every search.
DirecTV doesn’t even have AMC, E!, Style, TCM, TruTV, We, Fuse, GMC, DIY, Cooking, BBC America, History International, Investigation Discovery, The Hub, NatGeo Wild, Fox Movies, Reelz, Sprout, HSN, QVC, HLN, LMN, TV One, Centric, ion, and quite a few HBO, Cinemax and other premiums in HD. What’s the deal with that? I absolutely HATE that DirecTV thinks their S@!# don’t stink, when in fact it does.
So as far as DBS providers go, Dish Network has a better HD selection. DirecTV’s equipment is nicer (overall look, operation of software, multiroom, cutting edge program, etc..) but they don’t have the mainstream content to back it up. If your a sports lover that’s one thing, but general entertainment and movies? Go with Dish.
That is unless your local cable co is impressive, or you have access to Fios. If you can get Fios that’s a no brainer.
@cyberstream: how much does Charlie pay you per post? I used to get a nickel each on DBStalk.
I like the way you got the company line out there. Especially since it has nothing to do with the topic at hand and is exactly what the topic of this article was about; DISH employees badmouthing others.
Do you charge extra for that? I used too.
I use Directivo, and use apple tv for movies. So, all I want is an HDTV Directivo.
As I am an optimist, this snark from Dish tells me that the HD Directivo must be coming soon, as they are trying to get out in front of a competitor’s marketing campaign.
So bring on the HD Directivo! We have waited long enough!
Glenn- “Are you six?” Have to admit, I laughed.
On the astroturfing note, I was getting the same stupid Dish comments on the Motorola blog at the end of last year, and I know Telecompetitor was too. Pathetic and transparent attempt and free advertising. When I did comment on blogs as a Motorola employee, I did so with a specific point to make. This guy was just plastering pro-Dish stuff everywhere.
None of this comes as a surprise. Anyone who’s signed up for DISH and has had to deal with Cusomer Service will tell you how you need to take a shower afterward.
yes, I am sure DISH has done the same at TCF, though they do not admit to being DISH employees since we would all just laugh. We do have a rash of one and done rant posts. Someone signs up, does one rant post in a new thread about some bad aspect of TiVo and then is never seen again. Pathetic.
as for TiVo inc. Roger’s clealry stated that MSO deals are the revenue direction for TiVo. The standalone boxes are simply a way to show second tier MSOs what kind of box they can quickly add to their offerings. Standalone customers do not like this but we also will only pay under 500$ for a box and lifetime service so there is no money for TiVo to make in the standalone market. It really is that simple.
This is the same company that harrassed people on the national “do not call” list. You think they care what they post on the Internet?
They’re slime balls. Fish rot from the head down.
Dish badmouthing Tivo? Are you kidding me? Well I have been the customer of all three – TiVo, DirecTv and Dish – and I can therefore responsibly say that TiVo DVRs blow both DirecTv and Dish out of the water. Both functionality and technical reliability are vastly superior to the other two providers. Functionally, DirecTv and Dish are on par (each has positives and negatives compared to the other), but Dish’s hardware seems more reliable so far (3 months in).
We have a Dish Network DVR and it is HORRIBLE! The Tivo DVR we had with Directv a million years ago when it was brand new was soooo much better than the garbage that we are using now thanks to Dish Network. Tivo’s search list narrowed itself down as you were searching something, and our DVR makes us feel sorry for it, that’s how stupid it is. You can’t type the entire title on most shows into the search box, then when you finally get it to search it only goes ahead for that week. Well, okay, what if something is on break? Too bad, come back in a month and try again, if you remember! Tivo would save that information if they couldn’t find it coming up in the next month and then when it did come on three months later it would record it. No remembering required. Which is kinda nice because of the zombie state I have found myself in due to watching DVR in the first place… :o) Tivo rocks, and Dish Network can take it’s forward thinking self into the corner and play alone for a while.