Apparantly TiVo Mini promotional pricing has been so successful that the company will be shifting the expiration date from January 6th, 2015 to May 4th, 2015. As a refresher, the TiVo Mini hardware launched at $100 and required either $6/month or $150 for Lifetime Service. Yet, with a new CMO on board tasked with revitalizing retail sales, one of his first maneuvers was more sensible pricing for the DVR extender — bundling hardware and service for a flat $150 (or less). Beyond that, a slightly refreshed TiVo Mini is on deck for a spring launch (with newly released FCC pics). And what I’d hoped might be an exciting Zigbee home automation module appears to be nothing more than RF remote control. It’s a nice-to-have, especially given wall or television-mounting, but not revolutionary nor quite as versitile as the wireless Mini I pine for. Perhaps TiVo will answer the call via other means at CES next month with the Amazon Fire TV support or Roku app that they’ve previously alluded to…
What is it exactly that’s preventing them from making a 802.11ac WiFi TiVo mini? Is WiFi too unreliable?
“What is it exactly that’s preventing them from making a 802.11ac WiFi TiVo mini? Is WiFi too unreliable?”
If you are smarter than the average bear, then you can create a robust WiFi infrastructure to adequately handle TiVo bandwidth. But most folks are not smarter than the average bear, so I do have a certain sympathy with TiVo’s reluctance to include WiFi.
OTOTH, the chipset is probably cheap enough to make including it non-problematic for a cost perspective. But on the other, other hand, they’d end up getting a huge amount of bad press and tech support demands from not-smarter-than-average-bear consumers…
My mini is connected to an AC bridge. It works a lot better than the poweline adapter that almost worked. It has been extremely reliable so far, but I do not use the mini much.
I can stream just fine between Roamio (one base model, one Roamio OTA) via a ‘n’ network.
Raises the hardware price, perhaps limited market demand, adds more support costs, in relation of course the potential of poor networks. Having said that, RCN wants a wireless TiVo (as do I) and DISH already offers a Wireless Joey. So some interest is there and it can technically be done. The question is – will they do down that path?
What are the chances of a Roku App? I’ve been waiting for that day.
TiVo went to the trouble of producing mockups … or screenshots … a year ago. But who knows if something like that would ever be released. Not to mention services they might make available to cable partners may not be the same things that make its way to retail customers.
I’m pretty sure Snapchat integration is next big thing…
If I were TiVo I wouldn’t touch adding wireless to their consumer Mini – the potential to be nothing but a support nightmare is unbelievable high. I have a TP-Link 300 Mbps Wireless N router (model TL-WR841ND) and new Dell i5 laptop with an AC wireless chip and when I use it via wireless, the stream from my HDHomeRun OTA network tuners seems to have more issues than when I plug the laptop into a wired connection. Nothing else is using wireless and I am getting a 5 bar connection so I could see the mess TiVo would have streaming to a Mini via wireless.
“If I were TiVo I wouldn’t touch adding wireless to their consumer Mini – the potential to be nothing but a support nightmare is unbelievable high.”
In a perfect world, assuming the chipset would only add a couple of bucks to the BOM, TiVo should add WiFi to the Mini, not prominently advertise it, and require some trick remote code to enable it.
That way, it’d be officially unsupported, they’d avoid the support nightmare and bad press, and still let advanced consumers who would go to the trouble of putting together a robust WiFi infrastructure take advantage of what would be a very nice feature.
Of course, in a perfect world, pigs would fly so we could all go skeet shooting to get our fresh ‘n’ tasty bacon…
(And atmusky aside, it is possible to get a reliable WiFi connection at the necessary bandwidth for TiVo bit-rates, but his difficulties illustrate how tricky it can be even for accomplished gearheads.)
The new motherboard looks like it has a 5-pin socket for a daughter card on the bottom center (Roamio’s wireless card is also 5-pin). In which case they could tack on wireless for MSOs that really want it.
If an MSO is ok with the support costs, go for it. But really, wired is the way to go whenever possible and practical.
They could also sell a variant with that card for a disproportionately higher amount to cover the support calls or returns and make a few bucks in the process. $150 for the regular Mini, $200 for WiFi say. Also, some manufacturers utilize WiFi chips that have already independently passed thru the FCC and append them — so they could already have something in the works.
Question DZ,
Regarding possible streaming to Roku / Amazon Fire TV rumors, would it require Tivo Stream for us regular Roamio users? I have no clue in how the Roamio / Mini’s work but if to guess it would be similar to HDHomeRun device, streaming MPEG2 TS. Right? Wrong?
I have both (Roku 3 / Amazon Fire TV stick) and have been putting off purchasing a Mini in hopes that such features will be introduced soon…but sometimes soon is never fast enough.
Thanks and Happy Non Denominational Winter Holiday.
“Thanks and Happy Non Denominational Winter Holiday.”
I’ve simply had it with this War On Festivus.
Jonny, yes a theoretical Roku/Fire/whatever app would need a Stream for video playback (either standalone or integrated), same as the portable apps. The Mini does not.
I’d almost think they would be better off using a wifi mini as a stream client than a “standard” client – at least more compressed than the ~6GB/hour that Comcast transmits at. I’m visiting family right now with Comcast’s 2-ish year old non N non 5GHz router and it doesn’t reach large portions of the house. I installed a wireless expander last year which is even lower bandwidth (because they need some 2.4GHz clients). I would hate to add streaming video on top of that.
I was going to mention it in an earlier post of Dave’s, but I’ll mention it here since it was–mentioned: What is TiVo thinking with the new CMO. Ira was at Dish, and it’s marketing was pretty–not swell. And this was the opinion of many, especially those who are Dish subscribers. In fact, he was shown the door by the then new Dish CEO Joe Clayton who publicly faulted Dish’s marketing as among Dish’s greatest weaknesses. In came the genius for the Old Spice ads and far better ad for the then new Hopper campaign and better marketing overall and incredible awareness of the Hopper product and Dish in general. Something Dish NEVER experienced until then. TiVo was the marketing masters. We shall have to see how this develops. Yes I read the interview with him and was NOT impressed. Just ask yourself this: was there anything at all such as “marketing” at Dish all those years before Joe Clayton took the reigns as CEO?
Now, as for the new Mini: I may have missed something, so I apologize, but will the new ONE PRICE for the Mini apply to the NEW Mini due out soon or just extending to the original Mini?
Also, both DirecTV and Dish have robust wireless boxes functioning. They each essentially create their own access point and their own WiFi net for reliable streaming to the wireless Genie Client or Joey. It does work very well in most situation. Of course, you know the situations that can be a problem as it is a problem for all WiFi such as distance or too many obstructions, etc.
But atmusky makes a strong point about TiVo maybe avoiding this for the RETAIL units because of a “support nightmare” because both DirecTV and Dish techs are REQUIRED to install the wireless units because of all the vagaries involved with setting up an access point with wireless network AND a wired connection to the MAIN box: the Genie or Joey. And of course, the tech may have to trail and error to find the right place for everything. Quite a task. And even then, they both still get support calls from a small number, so they send another tech to find out what’s wrong and fix it. Keep in mind, Dish, DirecTV, and presumably TiVo are working with the huddles masses here, not techies who have some savvy of how access points and WiFi networks work. Frankly, while it could be done, I think it would be a gamble for TiVo to provide WiFi wireless TiVo’s for the RETAIL units because it has far too good a chance of disappointing people and angering them and souring them towards all TiVo products, and only because the masses don’t really know what they are doing and WiFi can be finicky in may settings, as well as competing with other traffic, if that is how TiVo would engineer WiFi for the RETAIL units, as that would be the most simple Joe Blow and Joe Sixpack (the same dude) can set up.
However, a wireless TiVo does make great sense for MSO units. The MSO’s can install and support these devices that will require more support than we might think. TiVo could implement the same type of somewhat more complex but far more reliable system of access points and connection to HOST TiVo and WiFi, because the MSO techs can install it for the subscriber and provide any support if it is necessary.
I was hoping for more in the new Mini than just RF, but I know how much people really need RF for a Mini, so good for them. I just thought we might see some really great new feature with it. Glad to see RF anyway.
Another Mike: I agree wired is always best, but, at least in the case of DirecTV and Dish, the wireless clients are promoted as solutions for when wired is not practical or aesthetic. Examples would be TV’s mounted where on cannot easily run wire such as over fireplaces (lots of work to hide those wires) or from ceilings when the back of the TV is visable, on tables or stands far from a wall closer to the center of a room exposing all those wires and tripping on them, other mounts where it is a PAIN and costly to run the necessary wires to watch TV, or even in a garage if the WAP is in the right place and the garage not far away, and running wires for TV watching in the kitchen is everone’s nightmare: shall we drill trough the granite back-splash or what other part of the kitchen shall we break much to the anger of the wife and it looks like crap with those wires in her kitchen, and bathrooms become an easy place to watch TV without wires (I do know one person who has a TV in the bathroom). Again, Dish and DircTV have them operating robustly, so it can be done well if your home is NOT one of those WiFi nightmare homes. Placement of WAP is key.
The wireless client is mounted to the back of the TV and so it blends in with the TV. Only a short HDMI cable from wireless client to the input. It all looks like one unit and people don’t notice the mounted wireless client or HDMI cable because it is all flush with the HDTV.
But yes, wired whenever possible.
They’ve had a decent amount of turnover in that role… of course, in my opinion, the best CMO was the one who wanted to fly me out for a consult. ;) Sadly, upper management held him in check on so many things and he moved on (before I got out). As far as the new guy, without having spoken to him and reviewing his resume all that closely, I’d guess his experience with Sirius is more relevant – a retail product with a subscription fee. If nothing else, it appears upper management is letting him experiment – whereas his predecessors didn’t seem all that empowered.
“I agree wired is always best, but, at least in the case of DirecTV and Dish, the wireless clients are promoted as solutions for when wired is not practical or aesthetic … Placement of WAP is key.”
Exactamundo.
This is not a situation where some form of ‘whole home WiFi’ is going to successfully solve.
When I had a reliable WiFi connection transmitting at TiVo-necessary speeds, I had a cheap 5ghz WiFi AP in the same room, around 20+ feet away, with a clear line of sight, (which helps with 5ghz at the margins.)
I always saw the use-case-scenario for this much as you do: you have Ethernet at one end of a room, and don’t want to run messy cables over to the the teevee on the other side of the room. In such a scenario, WiFi is an easy and reliable solution.
Wired wherever possible, except when you can do it a better way…
If Tivo offers a streaming app for the Roku or Fire TV, then customers could set these up to stream via wifi. Wouldn’t Tivo still have the customer support issues that they are trying to avoid by not allowing the mini to be set up using wifi?
It seems like Amazon and Roku can deal with the wireless support issues in a cost effective manner even when the content is being streamed from an external source like Netflix.
The Tivo mini only streams over the customer’s local network, so it seems like it should have less issues streaming wirelessly than a Roku or Fire TV.
It will be less of a problem for stream clients because the stream transcodes to a lower bandwidth format. The mini just views the native file that comes in over the wire
“It will be less of a problem for stream clients because the stream transcodes to a lower bandwidth format.”
Yup. Amazon and Roku are dealing with a bit-rate of something around less than a third of the bit-rate the Mini receives. (With all the PQ degradation that implies.) Much simpler infrastructure needed.
But yet again, setting up the necessary WiFi infrastructure for a theoretically WiFi Mini really is trivial for many use-case-scenarios, if folks are willing to follow some simple instructions and buy a cheap 5ghz WiFi AP for the room…
Setting up isn’t difficult if you understand networks. I can’t imagine trying to get my mom to understand it.
“Setting up isn’t difficult if you understand networks. I can’t imagine trying to get my mom to understand it.”
Well, your mom’s VCR was probably always flashing 12:00 AM too…
Look, I’m certainly not saying this is something everyone can accomplish on their own. But with a TiVo tech note explaining to put a damn 5ghz AP in the same room as the Mini, I’d guess most or many TiVo retail customers could accomplish this.
The only issues are:
1) How many customers who can accomplish this also need this? In other words, they’re in a situation where they don’t have easy access to MoCA or Ethernet where the Mini is located, but also have Ethernet on the other side of the room. And who knows what that number is? Maybe 5% – 20%?
2) Would the necessary chipset only add a buck or three to the BOM, and would the necessary software engineering cost be trivial?
If so, I think TiVo should clearly label the thing unsupported, even as they post a tech note explaining best practices to make it work, and toss it in. Dave’s idea of charging more for a separate SKU could also work, but oddly seems less practical to me.
The hardware and engineering costs probably aren’t so great. Again, it’s the support and how TiVo generally prioritizes that holds these things back. What if they sold you the same exact hardware, but you had to pay $29.99 to activate WiFi? That’d meet Chucky’s need for efficiency and my desire to cover their costs. Probably wouldn’t go over very well… ;) Of course, TiVo has hundreds of millions sitting around – so things like these could be trivial for them. But I’d guess senior management is mostly concerned with stock price in light of their own options and exits.
Isn’t MoCa simply easier and better?
“Isn’t MoCa simply easier and better?”
Better: No. It’s neither better nor worse. You can achieve the necessary constant bandwidth via MoCA, Ethernet, or proper WiFi infrastructure.
Easier: If you have a MoCA enabled Coax outlet right next to where you want to place your Mini, sure. But the entire point of WiFi is for situations where a customer doesn’t have a convenient Coax or Ethernet outlet, and running wires is difficult, impossible, or just massively unsightly.
“so things like these could be trivial for them. But I’d guess senior management is mostly concerned with stock price in light of their own options and exits.”
We can grouse all we like about senior management’s priorities, but the S5 retail hardware/software is the best stuff they’ve ever made by a wide margin. We’re in The Golden Age of TiVo.
“Again, it’s the support and how TiVo generally prioritizes that holds these things back. What if they sold you the same exact hardware, but you had to pay $29.99 to activate WiFi? That’d meet Chucky’s need for efficiency and my desire to cover their costs. Probably wouldn’t go over very well…”
Well, that’s my rationale for clearly labeling the thing unsupported.
A charge for the enabling a feature already built into the hardware actually seems perfectly fair to me, (and easier than producing two different SKU’s), but I agree it could well produce bad publicity. But any way they can skin the cat is fine by me.
(And we’re not even a multi-teevee household. I just think giving customers who could benefit from WiFi the option is a no-brainer for the betterment of the TiVo ecosystem, a plus for customers, and thus a marginal benefit to TiVo’s bottom line. And I do know that if we ever wanted to stick a teevee in the bedroom, which neither I nor my SO have any wish to do, we’d benefit from a WiFi Mini.)