After hearing from a couple of agitated TiVo customers regarding a change in terms, I fired up my Premiere Elite to the above message. In conjunction with Roamio’s launch, TiVo took the opportunity to update their Privacy Policy and User Agreement. And the sticking point, for some, is the new “class action/jury trial waiver” clause. Of course, class action suits are known for generating huge settlements … that rarely make its way to harmed consumers in any meaningful way. Yet, given TiVo’s stingy 90 day warranty and cutting off “Lifetime” service after 10 years in the UK, it’s not entirely unreasonable to abstain:
You may opt-out of this dispute resolution provision only by notifying TiVo within 30 days of the date that it first applies to you. You must do so by writing to TiVo Inc., 2160 Gold Street, San Jose, CA 95002, attn.: Arbitration Opt-Out, and including your name, address, account number (if you have one), and a clear statement that you do not wish to resolve disputes with TiVo through arbitration.
Further, TiVo’s renowned legal team, that has generated over $1.5 billion in patent defense and licensing, is recruiting customers for some uncompensated proofreading. ;) From the corresponding email blast:
If you have any questions about our updated policies or our privacy practices, or you see any typos we missed, please feel free to contact us
(Thanks Matt & Chris!)
As a TiVo Investor this update makes me very happy! ;)
“Yet, with TiVo’s stingy 90 day warranty and cutting off “Lifetime” service after 10 years in the UK, it’s not entirely unreasonable to abstain:”
Refusing to give up standard legal rights is never unreasonable, no matter what the corporation.
However, I have no message like this on my TiVo HD, and I’ve received no email to this effect. I wonder why. I assume I should assume that this applies to me, even without any notification.
I also wonder what the magic language formula is to send to the above address to apply as a “clear statement”. Does “I do not wish to resolve disputes with TiVo through arbitration. Sincerely, Me.” sound like it would qualify? I also wonder if I should send a registered letter…
—–
And good on Dave for blogging this. It’s News I Can Use!
I saw the message last night, made a note to review it in the next week or two..
Chucky, Maybe force a connection and see if the message is downloaded in that manner?
tivoboy, you got 29 days left to get a letter in. Then again, you can just hand carry it. :)
TiVo’s new privacy policy is simply asking TiVo users to agree to assert their legal rights through arbitration, which is one of many legal remedies previously available and the most consumer-friendly approach to resolving a dispute. As for the waiving class-actions, as Zatz notes these actions rarely serve consumer interests if ever and are usually boondoggles for lawyer-led out-of-court settlement that benefit the lawyers at the expense of the shareholders.
Obviously TiVo is not forcing anyone to give up anything, but these two changes are changes for the better in every respect to the TiVo user. It’s hard to imagine how anyone could think that taking TiVo to a jury-trial over a product dispute could ever be a reasonable path. As for your statement, I wouldn’t recommend making a statement that effectively waives your right to arbitration.
“TiVo’s new privacy policy is simply asking TiVo users to agree to assert their legal rights through arbitration, which is one of many legal remedies previously available and the most consumer-friendly approach to resolving a dispute.”
You, sir, are either nuts or intentionally spreading disinformation.
Mandated arbitration is by far the least consumer-friendly approach to resolving a dispute. This really isn’t in question among sane and honest experts on the topic.
And maintaining your full legal rights does not preclude you from choosing to avail yourself of arbitration should a dispute arise. It just gives the consumer the option of either resolving the dispute through standard legal means, or resolving the dispute through an arbitration process, (which, of course is generally heavily stacked against the consumer, which, of course, is why mandated arbitration clauses are so widely accepted as being anti-consumer.)
He runs one of the TiVo Investor forums. After his slight there today, critiquing my coverage (with auto analogies), instead of debating with him (again) I took the opportunity to pass the story on to some other outlets – we’ll let them determine if it’s newsworthy and if my rather neutral angle was appropriate.
Personally, I’m nonplussed and the only letter I’m working on is the one to the FCC in defense of TiVo and CableCARDs.
Always opt-out.
I’m convinced the threat of legal action is what made Replay reverse its decision to end guide support for the ReplayTVs.
You will want the option of court as leverage for a free or discounted lifetime transfer if for some reason Tivo ever wants to drop support for older models (e.g. Series 1/2)
“As a TiVo Investor this update makes me very happy!”
Beware of that, Sam. Ever since I got a TiVo, I’ve been a pretty enthusiastic TiVo evangelist. And not just online. I’ve actually gotten multiple folks into the retail ecosystem in my offline social circle. And not only have I done that because I like the product, but I have also done it because I’ve seen TiVo as a warm ‘n’ cuddly, consumer-friendly company.
But attitudes can change. Personally, I find this pretty offensive, even if as an existing customer, I have a cumbersome way to opt-out. And a perception of fair-dealing is an asset to a company like TiVo and its shareholders…
Dave, sorry if you felt my post on the private forum was a slight, compared with your post on your very public forum which was hardly neutral (after hearing from a couple of agitated TiVo customers…the sticking point, for some…given TiVo’s stingy 90 day warranty…cutting off “Lifetime” service…TiVo’s renowned legal team (a little sarcastic?). I don’t see any balance to the story that would qualify it as neutral.
I stand by my opinion that the expenses associated with any court-based legal recourse will dwarf whatever damages you’re seeking in a product dispute. Unless of course your TiVo runs over your neighbor or sets fire to your house, which is plausible but trust me when I tell you that their new privacy policy will not shield them from liability in either case.
As for “maintaining your full legal rights”, Chucky’s suggested letter to TiVo specifically waived his right to arbitration stating “I do not wish to resolve disputes with TiVo through arbitration”. Again, I’m just suggesting not wording it that way.
FWIW, just about every single User Agreement has this nowadays, although some brief internet searching indicates that they are very easy to circumvent.
For example, Microsoft added a binding arbitration clause and class action waiver last year.
http://geekparty.com/microsoft-adds-binding-arbitration-clause-and-class-action-waiver-to-tos-2/
Here is a NYTimes article discussing the practice.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/07/opinion/stuck-in-arbitration.html?ref=todayspaper&_r=0
“I don’t see any balance to the story that would qualify it as neutral.”
Unlike you coming in here and just lying your ass off?
“As for “maintaining your full legal rights”, Chucky’s suggested letter to TiVo specifically waived his right to arbitration stating “I do not wish to resolve disputes with TiVo through arbitration”. Again, I’m just suggesting not wording it that way.”
Well, given that’s how TiVo wants me to word it, guess I’m going to have to spend some time on the phone with TiVo today. (Not to mention that I’ll need them to find some legal means to prove to me that they’ve “accepted” my opt-out.)
If I don’t get some kind of decent resolution via the phone, I’m going to reconsider my ongoing relationship with TiVo. Unlike Dave, I don’t take this kind of sh*t lightly.
mrgreenjeans, Nope, no sarcasm – you’re projecting. And neutral compared to the correspondence I’ve received on this matter, which I chose not to quote, including terms like “not consumer friendly” “shady as hell” “very dirty practices.” TiVo’s warranty is stingy (my opinion) and they did cut off UK “Lifetime” service (fact). Folks can decide for themselves what action they’d like to take, if any, in regards to this change (news) and I do point out that class action suits rarely make a dent in a consumer’s wallet or experience. It’s not like I’m here reviewing an unreleased feature, calling it “terrible, almost unwatchable” as Mossberg did.
Chucky, the email blast also said you could contact them via legal@tivo.com. Probably can’t opt-out that way, but instead of a first line CSR, maybe you can get better answers to your questions, quicker.
Wow, things are a little gamier out here in the wilderness. Perhaps my brief foray into this topic were misguided. I was only trying to deflect the absolute meaninglessness of the new Privacy Policy from gaining any further significance. It’s a good thing I didn’t suggest anyone fill out the registration card.
Perhaps you could help me understand where I lied my ass off. It appears intact to me. And I don’t know how TiVo wants you to word anything but the wording you chose can and will be used against you in a court of law, (that’s a like a mini-miranda warning). But seriously, why would anyone other than a lawyer encourage civil litigation where arbitration is available? I guess if you haven’t been through it before it might sound like a nice thing to threaten someone with. Try wading through it for a few years, sending your lawyers tens of thousands of dollars in wasted legal fees, and then tell us how good that advice is.
BTW, I’ve never, ever, ever heard of anyone (1) reading a Privacy Policy; (2) threatening to drop a product because of one; or (3) seeking to have one enforced. Let us know how your call goes with TiVo, and then make sure you call Microsoft, Google, Apple, Dell, Lucent, IBM and the other 500 companies under whom you are bound by their Privacy Policies.
“Chucky, the email blast also said you could contact them via legal@tivo.com. Probably can’t opt-out that way, but instead of a first line CSR, maybe you can get better answers to your questions, quicker.”
Expressing outrage took precedence over quicker. First line CSR said she’d received over ten calls already today on the issue. I was glad to add to the metric.
Allegedly bumped up two different supervisory levels, where I could get nothing other than the legal email address you cite. (For whatever reason, they skipped me on the email blast, though I otherwise receive emails from TiVo.) Everyone was polite, and tried to convince me not to change my opinion of the company. We’ll see how things go on the email front.
(Oddly, the first line CSR objected to me recording the call, but the supervisors allowed me to record.)
I’m with Chucky, love my TiVos, but with every right being taken from us lately, this is one of the few we can grab back.
I opted out for paypal and some other company I cant even remember. Did not receive any acknowledgement. What, do I have to send it by certified mail?
Any time a company makes opting out of something so hard such as sending a snail mail letter to them without any other advice other than the address to send it to and that it must be done within 30 days, I’m smart enough to send something. Right after a product launch and in the middle of summer vacation and going back to school season, giving us 30 days, thanks TiVo!
Sam and Jeans being so enthusiastic also sets off bells.
Anyone found where the opt-out setting is?
First, I noticed that the web site they indicated on the Tivo is wrong!
It’s not tivo.com/policyupdate but tivo.com/legal/policyupdates
However, there is no way of opting-out from there!
Eventually, you can find some pages that tell you that you need to log into your account and go to Device Preferences to opt out, but my devices do NOT show opt-out as a choice!
This is ridiculous.
Maybe if I call myself Edward Snowden, they’ll pay attention!
(Actually, sorry for the humor on that– it’s a terribly scary situation what’s happening to civil liberties.)
Tivo does have a crappy warranty. Its one of the few CE electronic devices that doesn’t have a standard one year warranty. Then if you buy the extended warranty, it only replaces the device one time. I had a replacement tivo for a broken box that required 3 boxes to get one that worked and I had to argue to get them to send the third box. I don’t think I will do the Roamio. It just doesn’t at this time offer enough to replace 2 paid for units, one of them a lifetime unit.
“BTW, I’ve never, ever, ever heard of anyone (1) reading a Privacy Policy; (2) threatening to drop a product because of one; or (3) seeking to have one enforced.”
Did that send chills up anyone else’s spines? “These aren’t the droids you’re looking for…”
Also, the fact that the consumer does not benefit from class action suits is bogus. Even if not provided notable recompense (except for the snake that files it), the costs to the company ARE notable. The point of a class-action is not for every consumer to cash out and move to the Bahamas, it’s to make companies change practices and do the right thing for their customers. The fact that lawyers get rich off of them is just an evil side-effect. But please don’t make the mistake of thinking that having a voice and some influence over a company, a government or any institution is not worth it because you won’t get a big check. That’s just silly.
And I agree with the others that I always viewed TiVo as being ‘better’ than “Microsoft, Google, Apple, Dell, Lucent, IBM” and when they illustrate otherwise it saddens me.
http://consumerist.com/2013/08/21/tivo-adds-mandatory-binding-arbitration-for-customers-heres-how-to-opt-out/
And there you have it… Consumerist refers to it as the “the evils of mandatory binding arbitration” and suggests customers opt out. It goes without saying they obviously found *TiVo’s email* that I forwarded (after mrgreenjeans outburst) to be newsworthy. Who knows, based on Chucky’s conversation with TiVo support, I may not have been the only one. Given Consumerist’s recommendation, along with convincing commentary from Chucky and Trynyty, guess I’ll send a letter. Solidarity, brothers!
And there you have it…Once again Zatz uses his blog of mass destruction to smear and discredit anyone and anything that disagrees with his biased reporting. At least we know why “…It’s Not Funny”. If you took the time to read through the articles and opinions of the Consumerist you would realize that their blanket opposition to binding arbitration clauses is rooted is much larger financial issues including employment agreements and presumably financial advisers, big ticket consumer products.
My simple suggestion is that it takes a uniquely impaired moron to spend under $1000 for a consumer product and not see the benefit of assuring that the company you bought it from can’t force you to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to get your $1000 back. Binding arbitration is cheapest, most effective and guaranteed way to address a small grievance – especially considering TiVo’s proposed terms in which they pay for the entire process (so long as the arbitrator doesn’t rule that the grievance was frivolous), they agree to do it in the consumers local County, and they agree to waive any right of appeal.
Of course the obvious next whine is that the AAA is rigged for big corporations and the little guy never gets a fair shake. Maybe the truth of the matter is that very few consumers have the legal training, patience or advanced graduate degrees needed to go up against corporate lawyers in the first place, and so they are usually outmatched. Which just brings us back to how it is conceivably responsible to recommend to these consumers that they reserve their rights to hire lawyers to take an action through the courts. OMG. I was really just trying to show that yet again Zatz lost the forest through the trees in his zeal to put down TiVo on an issue so microscopic it’s hard to find.
“Given Consumerist’s recommendation, along with convincing commentary from Chucky and Trynyty, guess I’ll send a letter. Solidarity, brothers!”
We’ll see about this snail mail bullsh*t.
I pre-paid for a year’s worth of service under different terms, and I expect to get my opt-out to restore those terms via normal channels of customer service, or I expect the unpaid portion of my pre-paid service to be credited back to my credit card.
I’ve got zero patience for this bullsh*t. 36 hours ago, I was talking about how I liked sending money to TiVo, and I was figuring out my schedule for upgrading to S5 so I could send Alviso even more money, both up-front, and and on an ongoing basis. Now, I’m researching FiOS DVR’s.
We’ll see if customer service will provide a graceful means to honor my contract, or void my contract. And I’ll be recording the conversations. But like I say, I’ve got limits with this bullsh*t. Ain’t kosher.
If I don’t care about the customer service I receive from my DVR company, why not go with FiOS?
@mrgreenjeans – You have a better chance of getting the NRA to change their views than @chucky.
I completely agree with you that it’s much to do about nothing and clearly you’ve pissed off Dave on the stock website because he usually doesn’t go at it with people (unless they work for TiVo marketing :-0). As for @chucky there is clearly something wrong with a person who gets so work up over nothing and then hours later is still worked up unless he’s a “responsible” gun owner. Then it’s perfectly normal behavior.
Here’s some humor on flame wars:
http://www.collegehumor.com/video/3980096/we-didnt-start-the-flame-war
OK, we had our fun. Let’s keep it on topic and abstain from the personal stuff… or risk annihilation by my blog of mass destruction.
New by-line, perhaps?
Zatz Not Funny
Blog of Mass Destruction
Kinda has a certain gravitas. :)
“Binding arbitration is cheapest, most effective and guaranteed way to address a small grievance – especially considering TiVo’s proposed terms in which they pay for the entire process (so long as the arbitrator doesn’t rule that the grievance was frivolous), they agree to do it in the consumers local County, and they agree to waive any right of appeal.”
Except “arbitration decisions do not need to be based on the law,” per the NYT article.
Reading online forums, Tivo’s stance (at least from phone support) is that your warranty is voided if you open it up merely to upgrade the hard drive (even assuming you don’t damage anything in the process).
That is a clear violation of Magnuson-Moss, but an arbitrator could still decide in the company’s favor on that issue.
Since we already have an example of Tivo itself trying to limit consumer rights under federal law, I’d want to keep the option of taking them to court.
Spoke to customer service again. Requested template language on what TiVo would consider to be a “clear statement” on not accepting the terms. Customer service supervisor, after putting me on hold and talking to TiVo Legal, informed me that TiVo Legal has yet to determine what language would qualify in their eyes.
Also said that TiVo has no current plans to let those who try to opt-out find out whether or not their attempt was successful.
Had no information if TiVo would be willing to provide me with a pre-paid FedEx or USPS slip with receipt verification.
On the bright side, the customer service supervisor agreed to follow up with me within a week after further consulting with TiVo Legal, and agreed I’m entitled to a pro-rated refund of my yearly service contract (made under the old terms) if things aren’t resolved to my satisfaction. That was the first even vaguely correct interaction I’ve had with TiVo since this started.
(Also talked to FiOS today, and they made me a quite reasonable offer on DVR service. Still need to do more research and see if it’s something I’d be happy living with.)
Knowing your workflow, you will not be happy with the FiOS DVR.
“Since we already have an example of Tivo itself trying to limit consumer rights under federal law, I’d want to keep the option of taking them to court.”
While it’s definitely true that you want to maintain your full legal rights by opting-out, it’s worth noting that this move will reduce your overall protection even if you do opt-out.
By drastically reducing the “class” available for any class-action suit, this drastically reduces the chance that any future class-action suit would be ever be undertaken, even should TiVo blatantly trample over its customers and what it has promised them. (Hence why the stockholders are dancing.)
Buyer Beware investing in TiVo equipment and long-term services under the New Consumer Hostile Regime.
“Knowing your workflow, you will not be happy with the FiOS DVR.”
Ever since the CCI byte got flipped on HBO, the amount of offloading of programming I do has fallen to close to zero, if that’s the workflow you’re talkin’ about…
Chucky, just send your opt-out letter via certified mail, w/ return receipt requested.
As for the lack of class-action, it was pretty clear in the Replay uproar that people were prepared to sue individually, and I would be inclined to do the same.
Chucky, just FYI, here’s Sect. 17 of the current Verizon FIOS TV Terms of Service:
17. We hope to make you a happy customer, but if there’s an issue
that needs to be resolved, this section outlines what’s expected of
both of us. YOU AND VERIZON BOTH AGREE TO RESOLVE
DISPUTES ONLY BY ARBITRATION OR IN SMALL CLAIMS
COURT. There is no judge or jury in arbitration, and the
procedures may be different, but an arbitrator can award you the
same damages and relief, and must honor the same terms in this
agreement, as a court would. If the law allows for an award of
attorneys’ fees, an arbitrator can award them too.
…Followed by sub-sections 17.1 thru 17.8 further limiting and subordinating your
rights.
If you’re gonna stick it to da man, you gotta stick to all da men or you’re just not working hard enough.
Although, with a service provider like Verizon you also have leverage via whatever governing body allows them to operate in your jurisdiction. When Comcast couldn’t get it done with a CableCARD install a few years back, I called up Montgomery County (MD) government – the franchising authority. Who called up Comcast. Who sent a tech out immediately. Not sure to what extent that matters to this conversation. On the flip side, Verizon generally locks customers in to multiyear contracts for reduced rates so you generally can’t just walk away like you can with Comcast, TWC, etc.
Use the FAX as well. Just as legal. Their attorneys are not entitled to mandate how you must deliver communications to them. (408) 519-5330
“Chucky, just send your opt-out letter via certified mail, w/ return receipt requested.”
But…
1) I was told that acceptable content for that letter was yet to be determined.
2) I was told that I would whether or not my request’s acceptance would be accepted by TiVo Legal would not be accessible to me within the time-window offered.
3) I was told that it was yet to be to determined whether my snail mail burden would be assumed by TiVo.
Unacceptable customer service by my lights. I’d do better with FiOS.
Chucky gets results!
“We’ll see about this snail mail bullsh*t.”
Received email from TiVo customer service today.
1) Given specific language TiVo will consider acceptable.
2) Given assurance TiVo Legal will confirm my opt-out request prior to expiry of the time-window.
3) Given TiVo email address to do all this without recourse to snail-mail.
So, after a week of bullsh*t, TiVo customer service came through with my bare minimums. I can continue being a Tivo customer. Whoopee! No snail-mail bullsh*t, indeed.
However, I still consider this a land-grad against TiVo consumers by TiVo stockholders. I had counted on the potential of class-action suits as my defender against TiVo in the future deciding that lifetime service really meant 18 months. Yes, I know I can sue personally, but class-actions offered me considerably more protections. And this essentially precludes class-actions going forward.
So, I’ll continue to be a TiVo consumer for the time being, rather than getting the refund on pre-paid service that customer service promised me on a recorded phone call, but I am much more wary going forward in investing in TiVo equipment and long-term services…
Notified of the opt-out via fax. I mean, seriously, companies can try anything they want when it comes time to consider what they think is right for them, but consumers can always do exactly the same thing.
Congratulations on sticking it to da man. Now all you have to do is run that playbook, if you still have time, with every other technology company out there. That’ll show ’em who’s boss. With all you now have invested in protecting your rights, please let us know when you engage any of these providers in a class-action lawsuit or direct civil litigation so we can follow along while they bankrupt you over a defective video recorder.
You understand that your “class-action” will be a class of 1 or maybe 2, the bad news is that the other guy is going to be at least as level-headed as you, so prepare to bring your checkbook. It’s obviously a good they weren’t trying to do something much more devious than interfering with your right to watch recorded TV because that’s where the Founders drew their red line. Like the Virginia motto say “Thus always to tyrants” (I mean we’re talking tyrants here, right?)