While we generally shy away from rumor and speculation, TiVo’s been pretty quiet as they approach the one year anniversary of Premiere retail availability. Given our site heritage and interests, the lack of news out of Alviso can be frustrating. So we’ve whipped up a post based purely on hearsay, but one that hopefully gives some indication what TiVo is quietly working on.
Hulu
Access to Hulu Plus from TiVo DVRs was announced way back in September and expected to launch “in the coming months.” Yet we’re wrapping up month six and who knows what Hulu may look like when TiVo’s app ultimately launches. Engadget’s received word that beta testing is underway. While I can’t corroborate with 100% certainty, I’ve seen purported blurry cam video footage of the service and, at least on a cursory basis, the interface looks quite similar to Hulu’s other set-top box offerings (like Roku and PS3). If Hulu Plus is indeed in beta testing, I’d expect the TiVo app would be ready to go live in the very near future. However, in the past Hulu has dictated partner announcements and product releases. So its launch may be held until the news can be bundled. For example, we’re still awaiting Hulu Plus on the Xbox 360.
Streaming
Regulars know I’ve been disappointed in TiVo’s multi-room viewing technology. Most whole home solutions stream content room to room, whereas TiVo played it safe early on by merely copying shows on demand – given their own prior hardware limitations and home network concerns. However, we’re collectively at a better place on the technological front while we’re conversely limited by obtuse cable policies designed to prevent piracy (but actually do nothing more than inhibit valid, secure usage). According to this anonymous comment and anonymous private correspondence, TiVo may be currently testing Premiere-to-Premiere streaming. Unfortunately, older hardware won’t benefit from this solution. And while TiVo could artificially draw the line in the sand, TiVo Series3 and HD hardware truly would struggle with real time HD streaming in many network environments.
Extender
Last week, online logs revealed new TiVo hardware without storage capabilities and new product numbers have been identified. Based on the timing and an offhanded remark, I assumed the non-DVR Best Buy TiVo smart TV is nearing launch. And it very well may be. But this anonymous comment and anonymous private correspondence suggest a TiVo extender is currently being tested.
This unit is described as very slim and the flattened TiVo Premiere above is purely a mockup. As an extender, this unit would is not designed to record television content but rather would receive streamed recordings from a TiVo DVR elsewhere in one’s home. Additionally, unlike Moxi’s extender solution, TiVo’s play will reportedly tune live cable television via an M-Card. Of course, TiVo’s Internet apps would also be available. Supposedly the new extender hardware leverages multimedia over coax (MoCA) networking… which makes sense as TiVo joined the Alliance last year. And in various forums, TiVo has more than alluded to a beefed up “multi-room and non-DVR platforms.” But it’s generally been specific to cable partners (Suddenlink, Charter), rather than an outright foreshadowing of new retail products.
For a retail customer such as myself to take advantage of a MoCA-based TiVo extender, I’d either need a MoCA network adapter near my existing Premiere. Or perhaps there’s a Premiere+ under development with integrated MoCA capabilities (and hopefully more tuners). Actually, I assume there must be such a product in the pipeline. But given factors like the still incomplete HDUI and limited advertising, as I’ve been saying for quite awhile now, it appears retail takes a backseat to TiVo’s cable and satellite partners (and even litigation) these days. However, should an extender become available, I’d be down for two. Assuming a small or non-existant monthly service charge.
I should add that in my lingo, it’s an “extender.” To TiVo and their cable partners, it’s probably just a TiVo “cable box” (that happens to offer whole home capabilities). And probably not so different from how Verizon markets their DVR & whole home solution.
In fact, it’d be pretty hard to go into retail with this concept. I can’t imagine Best Buy would offer it for example; it’d have to be an online only dealio for those who understand the concept and willing to take on whatever unique networking requirements. (Then again, if they’re turning on Premiere-to-Premiere streaming, we could conceivably bypass MoCA. If our network throughput supports it.)
Hm.
OK. I’ll ask the question:
Has TiVo backed themselves into a corner by building around Flash? Is Flash an adequate development platform?
I’m assuming the slowdown in providing Hulu has to do with writing the client.
I’m assuming the problems many folks (though not me) have with using Netflix on TiVo have to do with writing the client.
I’m assuming the inability to get the HDUI to an acceptable state of teh snappy have to do with some combination of software development problems and/or inadequate hardware in Series 4.
I mean, why shouldn’t TiVo step right up to the plate and write an HBO GO client and push it out to boxes? How hard can that be, unless their development platform is inadequate.
(And Chucky is bummed that there doesn’t seem to be any way to get a lean-back HBO GO experience on either his TiVo or his Mac Mini. I mean, c’mon, they’ve got all seasons of all their original programming series available. That’s a goldmine.)
I know nada about using Flash as a platform in the way TiVo has chosen. But could that be the problem here?
I’d think that the Flash-based UI would make it easier to add something like HBO GO support, which is a flash-based app in the browser.
The problem with a native HBO GO is probably more of a business issue having to do with HBO’s carriage agreements with the cable companies (similar to the reason that Hulu didn’t come to devices for a few years and then only as Hulu Plus).
Why would TiVo invest time and money developing an app like for something like HBO GO if HBO would just block it? Remember HBO is the same company that doesn’t want their stuff on Netflix. See all the other companies that have developed clients only to have them blocked.
I do agree that TiVo is taking way too long to fix things. It is definitely disturbing to see some of the issues that still exist or ideas that roll out half-baked without updates.
Still I would happily replace my TiVo HD with a 4 tuner TiVo Premiere.
“Why would TiVo invest time and money developing an app like for something like HBO GO if HBO would just block it?”
Because I don’t think HBO would. I think HBO wants wide uptake of HBO GO in the lean-back space. That’s why they’re building HBO GO into new Samsung and some other brand of TV’s.
In other words, I think HBO would be happy to have HBO GO on TiVo, just as long as TiVo wrote the client…
—–
“Remember HBO is the same company that doesn’t want their stuff on Netflix.”
A smart business move on their part, IMHO.
I had no need for Showtime once I could get their shows on Netflix.
“I’d think that the Flash-based UI would make it easier to add something like HBO GO support, which is a flash-based app in the browser.”
I’m not sure it’s quite that simple. The browser version is designed in Flash, but a lean-back version would have to be written from scratch.
And although I profess my ignorance about Flash as a development platform, I don’t think the fact that browser-based HBO GO is written in Flash would provide a head-start in writing a lean-back client in Flash. But I could well be wrong about that.
I would kill for a true TiVo Premier extender. I don’t want to deal with MoCA stuff. Just require a wired ethernet connection and you’re good to go. Also, you’re suggesting the extender would require it’s own m-card and a coax connection to watch live tv? I would hope it would be able to stream directly from the main TiVo box (a la Moxi). I wonder if that’s a hardware constaint.
Regardless, even if it only did half of what a true TiVo extender should, I’m ordering day one.
“The problem with a native HBO GO is probably more of a business issue having to do with HBO’s carriage agreements with the cable companies (similar to the reason that Hulu didn’t come to devices for a few years and then only as Hulu Plus).”
FWIW, this conflict is genuinely absent here. You’re only eligible to receive HBO GO if already you subscribe to HBO through a cable company.
That’s precisely why HBO is willing to let HBO GO proliferate in the lean-back space.
On some networks HBO Go doesn’t verify if you are subscriber or not. I know engadgetHD has mentioned this everytime when they put up a post on HBO GO.
“I would kill for a true TiVo Premier extender. I don’t want to deal with MoCA stuff. Just require a wired ethernet connection and you’re good to go. Also, you’re suggesting the extender would require it’s own m-card and a coax connection to watch live tv? I would hope it would be able to stream directly from the main TiVo box (a la Moxi). I wonder if that’s a hardware constaint.”
I don’t see TiVo streaming live TV only because it would be tougher to justify a subscription for the extender. TiVo would have to make enough money on the hardware to sell it without a subscription if it streamed live TV. Even better would be to support streaming to multiple devices.
Brennok, Ben could be extrapolating his experience to all FiOS TV customers and it’s just not the case as I cannot bring up HBO Go. I wonder if he ever had HBO active on his account and somehow it thinks he’s still entitled. Or some other IT/clerical error.
“On some networks HBO Go doesn’t verify if you are subscriber or not.”
I’m not sure what you mean here.
I already know HBO GO is only available with certain cable providers.
Do you mean they are having authentication failures on other networks and letting people in for free? If that’s the case, I’d guess they think they can fix it, or else they wouldn’t be building the app into TV’s…
“Ben could be extrapolating his experience”
Huh. I googled up the post, and I can’t imagine they won’t take care of that over time, if it is a common issue.
“I don’t see TiVo streaming live TV only because it would be tougher to justify a subscription for the extender.”
Meh. There’s no reason they couldn’t charge a lower monthly price for pure extenders in a theoretical hub/spoke model. A $2.99 price point is probably acceptable…
“As I cannot bring up HBO Go”
Y’know, Dave, if your Google TV box wasn’t just a loaner, you ought to subscribe to HBO just to check out HBO GO on the Logitech, since that seems to be the only place you can get HBO GO for the lean-back at the moment…
Hm, I didn’t know or didn’t recall HBO Go was enabled on the Revue. Maybe I’ll pull it out of storage to cover the new remote app (which isn’t very attractive) and check out HBO Go. (I generally don’t use long term loaners like this on a regular basis, as I didn’t pay for them, and only drag them out for coverage.)
“Hm, I didn’t know or didn’t recall HBO Go was enabled on the Revue.”
While I’m sure it’s been announced, I’m not actually sure if it’s already live, or just coming soon.
So do your due diligence with Google Search before pulling the Revue out.
Maddux,
There is no MoCA stuff to deal with, it truly does just work. And a tuner in the set-top give you an extra tuner for live TV, and thus makes the boxes more scalable. Without a built-in tuner, an “extender” couldn’t scale past 2 TVs without being severely crippled.
The goal is to have the EXACT same experience at every TV in the house, if you can’t watch live TV whenever and whereever you want or schedule a recording, you blew it.
“I’m not actually sure if it’s already live, or just coming soon.”
Wikipedia thinks it’s already live…
“There is no MoCA stuff to deal with, it truly does just work. And a tuner in the set-top give you an extra tuner for live TV, and thus makes the boxes more scalable … The goal is to have the EXACT same experience at every TV in the house, if you can’t watch live TV whenever and whereever you want or schedule a recording, you blew it.”
That would be a nice product. And it’d do wonders for the TiVo platform.
No, TiVo will impose the constraint artificially, limiting it to Premiere. Otherwise they would release it for Series 3 and HD with the requirement that they have a wired connection or the new wireless adapter. I stream video to TiVo using Netflix and PyTivo. So if that works, so should Series 3 and HD, given sufficient bandwidth.
“So if that works, so should Series 3 and HD, given sufficient bandwidth.”
But Series 3 and HD simply aren’t capable of providing the throughput to stream HD programming in real-time.
It doesn’t matter how those boxes are connected to the network. The boxes themselves can’t provide the throughput.
I would MUCH prefer a single whole home DVR plus extenders. One box with one cablecard. If the extenders have to have cablecards, meaning visits from Comcast each time I install one, then forget it. Yes I understand this means I have to have enough tuners in the whole home model to support all the live viewing. If they can’t do that then forget it. I’m not sure why saving the $100 on a 1TB or larger drive is really worth that much.
As far as MoCA if they build it in, I’ll use it instead of Ethernet. One connector is always better. But if they require an external bridge unit to use it, that’s pointless, I can already do that. And its not the sort of thing a typical Tivo user is going to figure out. Probably pointless if they go that way.
Oh, and just as a footnote, since I’m not an HBO subscriber, but was in the past, I thought I’d see if I could somehow sign in. But since I’m a Comcast subscriber, it turns out I CAN’T access HBO GO, and have to use the Comcast Xfinity app/website. And Comcast very definitely DOES check to see if I have HBO or not. Also would mean I can’t use a Google TV HBO GO App I would think. Or one on a Tivo.
Course it also means I have access to HBO shows on my iPad now (if I was a subscriber) rather than having to wait another 6 months for HBO to get their iPad app done.
Hi there, me again. It is really just a premiere without DVR capabilities. Also about 1/2 as wide as the mock-up you’ve got there. :)
Being flash based, I really hope the BBC iPlayer international app turns up on US Premieres.
Does it offer Ethernet in addition to MoCA networking? If MoCA only, I’d say the device is primarily destined for cable partners. MoCA has never caught on in retail. So I’m hoping it has Ethernet connectivity, too.
How many tuners? In something that tiny designed as a “cable box” I’d assume just one or two. Whereas I’d hope the Premiere+ (or “Broadway” as Chucky likes to call the next gen TiVo) has three or four.
Regarding, iBBC – it’s available on the Virgin TiVo, so hopefully they’ll make the International version available to other Premiere variants. Although it needs some work, as it’s only a “catch up” service now and us Americans need more episodes. Especially since it’ll come with a subscription fee.
If the tipster could give us a timeline that would be helpful. Are they really thinking a subscription for the extender(s)?
I have a woot refurb sitting in the basement that I would lifetime activate w/a path to multi-room viewing. Wish they could reach a deal w/the cablecos for on-demand stuff (IP delivery?)
“If the tipster could give us a timeline that would be helpful.”
The tipster’s tip was interesting. And more detail would be lovely, but I understand the rationales for being sparse on the detail. But I aver you are asking for the wrong information here. Remember the core truth that lies under the entire universe:
TiVo timelines are never helpful.
Based on the tipster’s hopes for Flash/BBC, I assume he is a beta tester rather than a TiVo employee. So his knowledge of timelines and distribution strategies are probably limited. We’re probably just going to have to wait until TiVo fires off the press releases on that front.
“We’re probably just going to have to wait until TiVo fires off the press releases on that front.”
Seriously. I love being a customer of the company, but even in press releases, TiVo timelines are never helpful.
As always, we’ll have to wait until TiVo actually ships to get a sense of timelines…
I am guessing the whole home TiVo will have 4 tuners and be out definitely after July. It will probably be announced around September since if I remember correctly, TiVo likes to switch back and forth between March and September announcements based off past releases.
One reason for this is the push for the tuning adapters to suuport 4 tuners minimum. They were given a year to roll out the firmware so even if TiVo was ready I think they would wait until after the deadline. While they could always add additional USB slots so you could use 2 tuning adapters, Ceton users with TAs saw how difficult it was to explain why they need a second TA but not a second CableCARD.
The other benefit to waiting of course could be better pricing on the hardware as prices continue to drop. They could also possibly implement streaming and finish the HD UI in the meantime. I foresee a pretty big backlash if TiVo released a new or revised model without the Premiere being a finished product.
Just got another anonymous tip from what may be source #3 – says the TiVo extender/cablebox has one tuner and also supports existing Ethernet or wireless capabilities as found on the Premiere.
Dave,
I’m not clear how this is going to be sold exactly. Like you say it doesn’t really make sense as a retail sell. The Cableco’s can sell stuff like this because they set it up for you–they sell you the whole package.
Tivo can only sell the pieces, without the setup. I assume they’ve got data saying that people prefer cheaper up front costs. Which the extenders will offer, even if the monthly fees aren’t reduced. But they have to sell you a quad-tuner whole home unit first. If that is MORE expensive than a Premiere, I think the whole thing won’t start up.
If the new unit replaces the Premiere, e.g. just a Premiere with quad tuner support, then I assume cheaper extenders could be a way to get more multi-unit Tivo customers, and more monthly fees.
But to me the very need for a home Ethernet setup is a BIG problem. Sure you might assume these days that most users hook up the cable modem in the living room next to the big TV, so an Ethernet connection there isn’t so difficult. But the other rooms? How many households in the US have hard-wired Ethernet in all the rooms they have Tivos/might want an extender?
Stupid. They should have put MoCA in it.
That plus the cable card and possible tuning adapter installs… I don’t see how this will be a giant success myself. Maybe if going forward the new rules for self-install of cable cards really work out but I’m assuming it’ll just mean my spending a lot of time on the phone instead of watching a technician do the work. And it’ll still suck.
They don’t have to sell you the quad unit. Not everyone needs 4 tuners. This could be sold to work with the Premiere assuming the Premiere eventually adds streaming.
With the single tuner the question becomes will it be able to record and transfer or only watch live tv and stream content? It would save them cost if it is streaming only with live TV since you wouldn’t need the hard drive either and could use some type of incorporated storage.
I think the real trick will be pricing especially with the Premiere subsidized at $99.
If they don’t require a subscription fee I could potentially see them trying to market it alongside devices like the Roku and WDTV except they are able to get live TV also. Maybe you just require a yearly fee of $30 or so for TV if people want to get the guide data, otherwise you don’t charge a fee.
So, the “extender” is basically what Microsoft tried to do with Windows Media Center extenders. A great idea: a box that has no storage or tuners, but can view stored content on the WMC box and tune the OTA/cable tuners on the WMC box. Tivo could do the same. But will they?
I thought the idea was great for WMC, but it fizzled out except for the implementation in the Xbox 360. Why doesn’t anyone else get the concept? I loved it, I’d still like to see it work. One expensive box in the middle, and the rest of the house with inexpensive boxes to stream content. It can be done.
I wish they’d announce something. After 8 years with TiVo, my lifetime’d Series 3 just broke for the second time, and I haven’t decided if I’ll replace it. In the meantime, I got the FiOS whole home DVR for FREE, and I’m loving the whole home viewing (at no additional cost per tv beyond a box), and the iPhone app is pretty great for remote scheduling too. Can’t say I’ll pull the trigger and buy a lifetime’d Premiere right now.
I feel like Tivo really needs to do something big if they want to people to come back. The cable card/tuning adapter/no On Demand problem is bad enough to keep people from using it (or going back to it in my case). If they had some kind of Tivo Master/Slave where you could stream via wired/wireless/moca to the slave boxes with a tuner but with no dvr and monthly cost, and had one master box that could bring me back. But the longer they wait, the more likely either the cable companies come up with a good enough solution with no upfront cost, or FIOS finally finishes it’s install roll out.
Yeah, except that if they want to offer live TV, which they need to unless the whole home box has LOTS of tuners and your home network is VERY capable (e.g. forget wifi), then they you need to put a cable card in each one of these suckers.
Which means a home visit from Comcast, immense pain and suffering, the usual deal. Plus tuning adapter for each one if you’re on Time Warner in an SDV area.
Then there’s the issue that if you just put a Premiere in the center of your home and buy cheaper extenders for each room Tivo makes less money on hardware. Lets imagine this isn’t a problem, since they don’t make much money on hardware. The other problem is that people seem to be thinking that the guide fees will be less than if you had a Premiere in each room. I think they WON’T BE. Tivo is barely profitable as it is, and can’t take much of a cut in these fees without going out of business.
So what you’re left with is likely a box that you still have trouble buying on a whim, that has a monthly fee you can’t justify for too many rooms, and whose only real benefit is that its cheaper than a Premiere as far as start up cost is concerned.
Is that going to be a big seller?
I use my Premiere XL just for OTA HD (as a backup to U-Verse), so curious extender is going to work for me and how it will be priced. I’d be fine without watching live TV and just watching recordings as long as the unit is cheap and there are no additional service fees.
I don’t want my extenders to have tuners – another $7/mo to the cable company ($2 for the cable card and $5 for an “additional outlet fee”) per extender, plus whatever TiVo decides to charge per month for them. So to hook up 3 HDTVs (family room, bedroom, den), that would cost $16/mo in fees to the cable company alone, plus TiVo’s charges.
Moxi and MoxiMates are nicer, but why cant TiVo jump the AllVid gun? Create a box (not a set top box, just a box) with a large 1TB HDD, four or five tuners off of one M-Stream cable card, and a gigabit ethernet or MoCa transport to the extenders? The box gets put away in a basement or closet, and your STBs just do the work of getting the data over the network? The extender’s hardware is very similar to a $99 AppleTV but with a more powerful CPU to handle that awful Flash UI and streaming data over the network. Then whenever AllVid hits, whatever specification they have to follow to put video on the local network (https+dlna or something) they can just update the software.
@Anthony,
That’s the way I’d go, e.g. no tuners in the extenders. Avoids cable company fees, cablecard install hassles, etc. Does mean there’s more demand on your network, but at peak all TVs might be watching recordings anyway so not really different worst case. Yes it means there need to be enough tuners for all the TV’s in the house that want to watch live plus the recordings that are going on, but I’m not sure that would be a problem that often really. And people would adapt to the ‘hey all four tuners are used you’ll have to watch something that’s recorded’ problem.
Also agree that the extenders SHOULDN’T have service fees. Maybe Tivo should just charge more for each extra tuner you enable (meaning per month) in the home DVR or something to keep themselves afloat.
Not what they’re doing though apparently. And given that I’m not sure why I care about this…